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Author Topic: One Roll Combat Resultion  (Read 2284 times)

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Offline Celedor

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One Roll Combat Resultion
« on: September 29, 2009, 03:40:26 PM »
We've all been there, rolled a massive open ended attack, gone 150+ on the attack table. . .then rolled a 02 on the critical for "Wiff"

Now, the 30-45 hits done by that top of the table result are nothing to sneeze at, but it can be irksome.

I was considering this, as a possible variant.

The initial die roll for the attack, be used for the critical also.

i.e. you roll a 50, toss in all the attack/defend modifications, get a 121 result for a 13C critical, then you take the 50, apply any crit mods (like say ambush if appropriate) and resolve it.

Now, I've rolled 90 and gotten an A, and I've rolled 20 and gotten an E. . .I can see how it might be a problem in bias, where you'll more rarely see the 70-00 As, or 80-00 Bs, or 90-00 Cs, or the 01-50 Es, or 01-25 Ds. . .But I've hit E's with a low roll, and A's with a high roll. . .you'll probably just almost never see 01-05 C-Es, or 96-00 A-Cs. . . .the latter being more problematic.

Thoughts? Opinions? Flaming Torches?
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2009, 06:46:02 PM »
I actually prefer it the way it is. It gives the player a chance of survival... and doesn't really the effect the result from the GM's perspective.

A good solid hit can cause buckets loads of concussion which knocks someone out...but not still not kill them. Thats realism.

Now, lets say you want to beef up the maximum concussion hits, that's a different matter. Lets says the roll exceeds 150 by 20, and then add +10% hits to the result per +10 over the threshold. Thus a roll of 170 that currently does 20 hits would now do 20 + 20*0.2 = 24 hits. A stonking result of 400 (exceeding by 250), would do 2.5 times the concussion damage (or 60hits).

This way you keep things reasonably simple. I'm also not sure how it would affect certain weapon types (like the whip) and the effects on certain AT's (like AT20) where currently lethal hits are meant to be unlikely.




Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 06:06:52 AM »
I like making the mechanics as simple and elegant as possible, you know this, but...

...it seems like I have had an SCA fighter do this very thing in a FtF game... max the attack, blow the crit, lots of hits, no real hurt.

Seems like I told him something along the lines of, "You can hear the swordmaster in your head yelling, 'I told you not to roll the wrist, idiot! How many kill shots ya think he's gonna just hand you like that?'"

The fighters I know generally accept it as realistic when I tell them a good attack and a blown crit represent good power and sloppy technique.
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Offline Celedor

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 06:22:59 PM »
(Love, just love that Avatar.)

Hmm, gonna have to re think this.
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Offline arakish

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 03:15:50 AM »
I have to admit that agree with GB's thinking.  You can get a hit that will do boatloads of concussion damage but not cause much of a critical.  There are far too many factors to explain this.

• One example I have used is that fatigue sets in and you can't grip the weapon effectively and it turns slightly when hitting, causing a hell of a hit but still not cutting or smashing as well.

• You have already slain some enemies.  You have their blood on your gloves/hands.  This causes a faulty grip on the weapon.

• The enemy is wearing pieces of plate and the plate turns the weapon.  Again causing a good smack, but not much of a critical.

The list is endless.

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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 05:00:28 AM »
The quarrel from your crossbow hit him square in the chest, but was stopped by his lucky silver piece.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 07:25:12 AM »
The quarrel from your crossbow hit him square in the chest, but was stopped by his lucky silver piece.
In such cases I might also explain this as a miraculous occurance of previously unknown skill with yadomajutsu "arrow cutting"... or the body is indeed hit but in an area in which a critical simply has no major effect...or at least not immediate...or is ignored/thown off by adrenalin.

Or even that the arrow/bolts head came loose when it was fired...just hitting with the blunt end.

Offline arakish

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2009, 05:30:36 AM »
And I am an accomplished archer.  Still practice.  And there are times as a fletcher, I do not make sure the arrowhead is on correctly.  Although very rare, I have had arrows hit the target and simply bounce off, yet the head is stuck in the target.  Sometimes it is faulty equipment.  Sometimes it is faulty archer.  Most often it is the wind.

A sudden gust of wind can cause the arrow to not hit straight, but at a slight angle; thus causing it to seem to bounce off the target.



The blue line shows the intended flight path of the arrow.  The black arrow shows the arrow following that flight path.  The red arrow shows if the arrow's tail were hit by a sudden gust of wind that pulled the tail to one side.  This angle is actually enough to make the arrow to harmlessly bounce off armor, especially plate.  On chain, however, the arrowhead would still bite but not enough to cause any serious harm.

When shooting at a target 200 meters away (656 feet), it will still take approximately 2 to 4 seconds for the arrow to reach the target (dependent upon the "pull" of the bow and the strength of the "puller").  Although 2 to 4 seconds may not seem like a long time, for an arrow that is almost 105 cm long (40 inches) [my arrows are 103 cm long], that is still quite a bit of surface area (especially with the fins) for wind to react upon.  Even 2 meters from your target, a sudden gust of wind can pull the tail of the arrow enough to the side to cause the arrow to hit the target at enough of an oblique angle that the arrow actually hits "sideways" and will bounce off the target.

I will be the first to admit that I am NOT an Olympic archer.  However, I have seen enough of my arrows actually bounce off the target.

Range is the biggest factor.  If I had a target that was only 5 meters (16.4 feet) away, then there is no chance I would miss.  Unless the winds were blowing with hurricane force at a perpendicular angle.  At 200 meters, then there is little chance I could hit.  You have too much time to react enough to cause a miss, especially if you knew I shooting at you.  If you did not know, then there is enough air to cause me to miss.

Another large factor for archers is their number.  The more archers, the more chances their arrows will actually hit a target.  In warfare, archers are a bombardment weapon, not a hand to hand weapon.  Given the situation, I could have a hundred archers that could completely decimate a 10,000 man army.

Obversely, given a hundred man army against 10,000 archers in hand to hand combat, well, the archers would be completely routed.

Legolas of the Woodland Realm was an exception.  In Tolkein's world, the Elves were supernatural.

O! how I wish my archery were comparible.

Right now, I can pick off a moving target, moving at up to 40 kph (24.85 mph) at a distance of approximately 80 meters (262.467 feet).  My brother made me show this off to a friend of his.  (Turdmuncher)

Needless to say, it actually took me three tries before I hit the target.  My brother, (forever the butthead) said, "Yeah, but you had 20 mph winds also."  (I am Metric where he is American.)

However, as me brother's friend showed on the vidcam he shot, I actually nicked the target on my first shot.

However, it took a vidcam at slo-mo to prove I actually nicked it.  But I did not HIT the target.  If I had hit the target, the arrow would have been stuck in it.

Archery is a not as easy as it is shown in the movies.  Excepting supernatural abilities, there is no man who can pull one arrow from his quiver and hit the Bull's Eye.  Then pull a second arrow from the same quiver and hit the first arrow so dead center that he splits it with the second.

Only in a supernaturally controlled situation can this ever happen.  To do a Robin Hood in the open environment is absolutely improbable.

And notice I say Improbable.

rmfr

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Offline Laminator_X

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 07:45:14 PM »
Something I've considered is re-scaling the crit tables to a 2-20 roll range, discarding or merging some results as needed to make the spread fit, and then using the sum of the digits on your attack roll dice (no OB or other mods, just the straight dice) as the crit roll.  Higher rolls would bias toward worse crits, but not gaurantee them, and play would be faster.

e.g. If you roll a 47 on your attack roll, and after mods you total a 67, and that nets a 20BK result; you would look up 11 (4+7) in column B on the Krush crit table.

Optionally, you could use the sum of the modified roll, if you wish to favor merit over luck.  If so, perhaps treat rolls that break 100 as "Tens+Ones" rather than simply summing digits, such that a modified 114 would be treated as 15 (11+4) rather than 6 (1+1+4).

That is not dead which can ACPI, and with strange ions charge is stored on Li.

Offline Celedor

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2010, 07:54:36 PM »
What if you have a super bonus or open end massively at get a crit result over 20?

Like a 201 would be 20+1=21?

Stick at 20, or both the 20 and the 1 result?
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Offline Laminator_X

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2010, 11:37:27 PM »
I'm not sure climbing over at the top would mean a whole lot, as most of the crit tables top out at some sort of takedown, KO, or Kill and you're probably already delivering a D or E on a roll like that.

I suppose the "100" result on the current tables could be pushed to 21+ if you allow bonuses or open ended rolls to count.
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Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 04:29:27 AM »
Very nice idea Celedor. Unlike other games, RM uses the same Dice to ascertain  the To-hit and Critical results. I've been using it in my games and it simplifies a lot.  :wizi:

Offline Moostik

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 10:29:53 AM »
Old thread, but good one.
I'd say the system is somewhat counter-intuitive. My problem is that criticals are based on luck, while damage in hits is based on skill. The message I read out of this is that
 
1. If you are exeptionally skilled, you can hit really really hard.
2. If you injure your foe really bad, you're just lucky.
3. You can never, ever aim for the neck or heart, no matter how skillful you are.
 
Ancient japanese swordsmen saw it as a display of perfect skill to cause their foe to bleed to death during combat. To achieve this, the'd "score below 30" on a crit every time. This way, "cutting" their enemies to death rather than delivering a "killing blow" would show the swordsman was in total control.
 
I know the "ambush" skill allows a character to modify the crit result slightly, but how about face-to-face combat?
 
I resolve combat like this; should an attack roll break 150, I resolve the excess result as a seperate attack. Commonly, this has no effect. Should the total score be, say, 260, youd have 1 attack scoring 150, and one attack scoring 110. The player would then likely have to roll for an additional critical. The reasoning behind this is that I think it is completely possible to attack more than once every ten seconds, although one attack is concidered "a sequence of fencing". Should you break a foe's defenses comletely, a series of devestating blows in a short time should be possible (but unlikely).
 
I'm concidering a seperate skill to allow "targeting" with missile weapons agaisnt static or unaware targets. Also, in melee when facing immobilized /stunned+unable2parry targets.
Or just allowing ambush in these situations.
 
In conclusion, i really think it should be the other way around - almost. Say, strength defines damage/force, while skill limits critical severity - but that would require a complete rewriting of all the tables ???
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Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2012, 10:44:12 AM »
You could let the player say whether he wants to roll a critical or not. Like that he would be able to deliver massive hits, but not roll any death-delivering critical.  :lol:

Offline Moostik

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2012, 11:07:29 AM »
Sure. Or let him set a maximum value, or even roll a d20 (apologies for metioning that unholy item). But how about when the player just wants to shoot the guy in the knee? Or poke his eyes out?
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Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2012, 11:17:31 AM »
There are several systems for hiting specific body parts in the Rolemaster Companions.

I have considered these rules but never used them.

Called shots, i.e. attacking specific body locations of an opponent, adapted from GURPS, 3rd Ed., p. 203:
Head without helmet: -50 OB to hit; add +15 to the Critical Roll. Read critical results as if they were located in the head.
Head with helmet: -75 OB; add +20 to the Critical Roll. Read critical results as if they were located in the head.
Eyes: -90 OB; +30 to the Critical Roll.
Eyes through helm’s slit: -100; add +30 to the Critical Roll.
Arm, shield :-40, Damage over HPs´ total/2 cripples arm. Excess damage is lost.
Hand, weapon arm: -40; Damage over HPs´ total /4 cripples hand. Excess damage is lost.
Hand, shield arm: -80 OB; Damage over HPs´ total /4 cripples hand. Excess damage is lost.
Legs: -20 OB; Damage over HPs´ total /3 cripples leg. Excess damage is lost.
Vital organs (in torso): -40 OB; Impaling weapons that hit add +10 to the Critical Roll.
Weapon: -30 to -50 OB; Weapon may fall or break. See Disarm Foe, Armed.

An optional called shots system was published in Arms Companion, pages 30-31, with the Critical table on page 115.

Hope that helps !

Offline Moostik

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Re: One Roll Combat Resultion
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2012, 11:47:33 AM »
Thanks, Dale. I should consider these options, as I have the old books. Come to think about it, I think i've tried some RMC option, back in the days of RM2, at least 15 years ago, although I've never tried employing the rules in RMSS/FRP.
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