Author Topic: CAM crap (Read 1027 times)

Dame Eldgeth · « **on:** February 12, 2012, 03:55:25 AM »

So not too long ago, in December, I was congratulating myself for making a staunch defense against CAM (complimentary and alternative medicine, otherwise known as fluffy-minded thinking) finding a toehold in my medical center.
So imagine my suprise...our medical center has started a new pain management program, trying to decrease our use of narcotic pain medication. I work at a small satellite primary care clinic, an distant outpost of the medical center. Our clinc medical director e-mailed a contact at the medical center and asked what modalities they were using to treat chronic pain.
The answer came back: They are using yoga and Tai Chi (OK so far, stretching and exercise, breathing exercises) and also
ACUPUNCTURE (gag, puke) and CRANIOSACRAL THERAPY.
I mean really now. Not only is the American taxpayer being asked to pay for this, but, um, science please? The NIH NCAMM has spent something like a billion dollars (not exaggerating, that billion with a big B) on this, with no positive results, but now we're being asked to believe that the adult skull is not fused and can be forced into the correct alignment? To restore restore proper "tides" in the cerebrospinal fluids?
I am soooo pissed off. Again, science anyone?

Grinnen Baeritt · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2012, 09:35:52 AM »

I can only suggest that to some degree that, for some people, alternative pain management systems do work... and even if the "scientific" results do not appear to register the plaecbo effects often have as much value. If you are made to think you feel better you often are

I've had a couple of acupuncture sessions for my back (I was skeptical)... but they did provide some relief for several months afterwards.

However, spending huge sums on researching stuff (that has been practiced for thousands of years already) does seem a waste...

Usdrothek · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2012, 12:20:34 PM »

Tides in CSF??

Unbelieveable.

Sloth · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2012, 06:15:38 AM »

I have nothing against alternative medicine people. Their clients provide a steady income for me.

Seriously. When government-funded care starts to include homeopathy, chrystals and adjusting c'hi.. 'Shudder'

Usdrothek · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2012, 01:19:06 PM »

Sloth, do you have any stats on how many of your 'clients' had terminal conditions and used CAM 'therapies'?

Sloth · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2012, 01:34:57 PM »

Unfortunately, no.

We do serve about half of the local terminal care units, and in some the CAM treatments are used IN ADDITION(emphasis, not yelling) to regular pain relief, since at that point anything that makes the patient feel better is pretty much ok, but mostly it's the people we pick up from their homes who turn out to have something, usually cancer of some sorts, which could have been easily treated, had they sought proper care and medication. These make about half of our not-related-to-violence "pickups" or off the top of my head, about 4% of all deaths.

Dame Eldgeth · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:50:59 AM »

Grinen, if it does work for you, that's fine.
But. Well. We are now at the point that CAM treatments now claim that they have the same effectiveness as placebo?
Hoy? "our treatment is as effective as placebo"?
Why not just give everyone a nice cup of tea, pat them on the hand, and move on?
My problem is placing these "treatments" on the same plane as proven therapies, and asking the nation at large to pay for them.
And, to rage on....One of my patients says he NEEDS chiropratic treatment. Because the chiroprator has convinced him that his "spine bones are out of alignment". So when I offered him physical therapy, he refused it. Because of course, PT would not realign his spine like the chiropractor told him that he needed... Argggh!

epohfossol · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2012, 05:51:21 PM »

Don't get me started on those witch doctors...

I do kinda get their hook with things needing to flow better for proper health, but in reality does it work? Nope. So for someone to swear feality to a procedure that doesn't give long term help, they should foot the bill themselves. That money can go to people trying to cure disease.

Usdrothek · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:09:18 PM »

Anybody interested in hearing a real expert debunk CAM with knowledge, humour and veracity, check out this guy:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

One of my favourite reads! Being a doctor and a scientist, he's also is hot on the anti vaccine nuts (why I read him in the first place).

Dame Eldgeth · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:29:53 AM »

Yes, I enjoy him very much.
I also follow the Quack Cast, done by an infectious disease doc.
It is amazing how much money made by people lacking any moral compass can make from the credulous.

Usdrothek · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:03:35 AM »

Is it the need to 'believe' in something that drives people to grasp onto CAM practices?

Or is rejection of the 'norm', in this case established (western) medicine?

Dame Eldgeth · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:49:51 AM »

I think a big part of it is the desire to feel "special" that it feeds into.
So many CAM pushers frame their products in the "what doctors don't want you to know. We have the Truth that they have hidden." So if a person believes in the modality, they are one of the "chosen" who "know better" than the sheeples.

epohfossol · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:56:21 AM »

I think it feeds into the base human desire to cheat death. Also, I am afraid there is also the "It is not me that made someone sick and deseased" as far as the anti-vaccine whackjobs are concerned (yes I am a bit fanatical in this area, but as a parent, I don't want to have my children exposed to something that should have been eridicated 100+ years ago)

I know this altmed typs feed into the rich for-cash business. When you don't want to be sick or die, you will really believe in any drek that pops from these snakeoil salesmen.

(BTW, loved this Usd. I am going to have to pass it along to my friends now.)

Sloth · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2012, 07:16:57 AM »

The way I see it, some people seem to think anything produced industrially is bad. By marketing ones snake-oil as natural product(You liked our Rattler line! Now available! New more powerful Copperhead Cures! Buy Now!!), one implies it being free of toxins and other "artificial" stuff.

Of course most medicines are toxins of one sort or another.

I've also met altmed/tradmed and ancient diet believers who swear by some thousands of years old cure or another, forgetting considerably shorter average lifespans of those eras.

GrumpyOldFart · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2012, 09:17:06 AM »

In fairness, full disclosure, I have no medical training of any kind. That said, so far as I can tell, practically everything is "toxic". Nearly anything you can imagine.

It's all a matter of dosage.

So when I hear phrases like "free of toxins", part of me thinks, "Wow, you managed to create a perfect vacuum inside that little bottle?" Anything else contains toxins.

Sloth · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2012, 09:29:52 AM »

My point exactly.

Usdrothek · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2012, 01:51:44 PM »

Quote from: epohfossol on February 25, 2012, 03:56:21 AM

(BTW, loved this Usd. I am going to have to pass it along to my friends now.)

Glad you liked it mate. Please do get your friends to read it.

Usdrothek · « **Reply #17 on:** March 02, 2012, 01:06:06 AM »

Finally! Get CAM courses out of university. Glad to say our uni doesn't offer degrees in crap.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/universities-are-no-place-for-quack-medicine/story-e6frgd0x-1226286606262

I like the quote by Richard Dawkins:

"There is no alternative medicine. There is only medicine that works and medicine that doesn't work."

Dame Eldgeth · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2012, 03:32:26 AM »

I guess I've been asleep at the switch. I never guessed that CAM would have made such inroads. Theyre teaching it in our medical schools, our nursing schools, it is everywhere! My state board of nursing has a CAM unit, and my alma mater offers it, just like it is a real treatment!
I don't even know where to start. This fuzzy thinking is everywhere!
I mean really, it has taken root with the state board of nursing? These are the people who had me scared to death that I would not pass my boards. If I had known that they would become befuddled if I had waved a chicken foot at them, I would have been much less intimidated...

Jacinto Pat · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2012, 10:58:58 PM »

I went on a tour of naturopathic "medical" school in the role I try to carry off at work (that of a caring advisor). There were people in the group with limited scientific backgrounds who were very impressed by the kind, thoughtful articulate faculty and students. There was another group of us with scientific backgrounds who came in ranging from hugely ignorante (myself), to skeptical but willing to give them a chance. The scientifically trained among us all came out firmly convienced it was complete bunk and based upon deeply irrational thought processes. They had the scientific method backwards, didn't understand where the burden of proof lay, felt the students "feelings" were more important than them actually being required to actively participate in anatomy classes, lab procedures pretty much guarenteed meaningless results and on and on and on.

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Author Topic: CAM crap (Read 1027 times)